‘I’m Not an Ingénue Anymore, and I Don’t Really Know That I Ever Was’

ABLUpdated 1 week Ago19 Mins read5

Jenny Slate remembers the moment she told her agent, “I’m not an ingénue anymore, and I don’t really know that I ever was.” The actress and stand-up certainly felt the pressure to be one early in her career — “or to inhabit one,” as she puts it, “but it never really was a good fit.” As a result, she says she was given “little carrier pigeon” jobs that never allowed her to exercise her full potential. Not long after turning 40, she decided to turn down one of these jobs, explaining to her agent that she was willing to wait for the “full wingspan” work she’d always wanted to do. Enter Dying for Sex.

Written by Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock and inspired by the 2020 podcast of the same name hosted by Nikki Boyer and Molly Kochan, Dying for Sex tells the story of Kochan’s stage-four cancer diagnosis and her subsequent attempt to figure out what turns her on before she dies. The show follows Kochan as she leaves her mediocre marriage and goes on a rambunctious, moving sex quest, backed by the love and support of her co-host. Slate gives one of the best performances of her career as Nikki, fluidly moving between comedy and drama, death and horniness, Shakespeare and Clueless. Her full range is on display, with moments of broad physical humor, witty banter, emotional breakdowns, and quiet restraint. In one scene, she’s joyfully encouraging Molly to find her way to an orgasm; in another, she’s screaming at a hospital administrator on Molly’s behalf; in another, she’s lying on the bathroom floor with Molly, trying to hide her tears. “It was a huge opening for me,” Slate says. “To be able to bust out of a cliché.”

You’d just turned down a job when you read the script for Dying for Sex. Did Liz Meriwether and Kim Rosenstock come to you with it? Did you have an audition?
I had to have a chemistry read. It happened really quickly. There was a job that I decided not to do, and I remember being on the phone with my agent, and I was like, “I’d rather wait for something that really feels like what I know I’m capable of.” Or, I think the cheaper way to put that is, prove that. I kept saying, “I want to do what I know I can do, but it’s hard to describe what I can do unless I can do it.”

Had you felt that way before?
I felt it when Dean Fleischer-Camp, my ex-husband, and I were making these little Marcel the Shell shorts and I was like, “I can’t pitch this to you. I can’t show you what this character is. I have to do it.” I felt that way both times when I was trying to write my books. This time, it was more about me as an actor. I feel like, finally, I have all the things that I need to have in order to do a multileveled performance and I just haven’t gotten the chance. And I’d rather wait. Which is a scary thing to say if you’re paying a mortgage. But my agents were like, “Yes, that is exactly right. We’re really glad to hear you say it.”

How did you know you were capable of something more without having done it?
It’s like an appetite. I often refer to acting like that. I can’t survive without performing. That would kill me. I want to perform until I’m old, but I’ve been given morsels and they’re not exactly what I would cook for myself or order. And it’s a luxury to be able to receive what you have a deep hunger for. I think for a lot of performers, it’s really hard to get those things, and I kind of think it’s harder than ever. There’s certainly no great weather reports coming in when you’re about to turn 40. For actors, especially female performers, it can be like, Well, you’re going to get less. I always feel like I’m kind of scrounging around for material.

You mean for your whole career?
Yeah. That might just be me having experienced myself, since middle school, as an underdog. I also had a lot of wins and I have a really nice life and I like myself. But I think it is really hard to get the good roles. I’ve gotten a lot and I’m grateful for it, but it’s really not all a perfect fit. There was an intense realness that came from becoming a parent and from being able to start my love life again with my husband. It’s like, these things start to grow in me. Things that maybe I would only see glimpses of, elusive parts of myself that represent strength, or being in control, or being forgiving. And this feeling just popped up: I know what I need, and there’s not a lot of time to waste. And then the Dying for Sex script came in. It kind of did feel like meeting a true love and being like, If they don’t like me back, I’m going to be heartbroken.

What was it about the script?
There are a lot of times where I’ll get a script and I’ll be like, I want to do this, but I can kind of understand why they wouldn’t choose me. And for this one I was like, I really don’t know why they wouldn’t choose me. But I knew other people were going up for it, and I had to really focus on preparing myself.

What do you remember about the chemistry read?
It was December 18, 2023. I had patched together child care for that day, because my husband was away. I took the train from Providence to New York and I had a four-top with a family of three, two kids and a mom who were going to see the Rockettes. The script was really explicit. And I was planning on putting in my headphones and just mouthing the words. And I couldn’t do it because there was just the character saying “fuck” a million times. These kids were literally in matching outfits. A combo of L.L.Bean and J.Crew catalogue. It just was like, I can’t be swearing. Whispering swears is even weirder.

I remember Michelle had a big binder and she was wearing a black sweater and a trousers and a belt, and she was really curled up into herself. I was like, “Cool. She’s a live person. She cares about this so much,” which made me feel comfortable to care at that level. She’s one of my favorite actors. My husband and I had just watched Showing Up and I kept telling myself, This might be the only time you get to play this part with this actor. And when you’re old, you would be able to know, “Well, I did get to do that scene.” I was so sweaty. I was so nervous. I called one of my sisters from the waiting room and I was just like, “I feel like I’m going to fuck this up, I need it too bad.”

And how did you feel like it went in the room?
We did a scene that I don’t think ended up in the show. My character is sort of coming down on Molly for her inability to take risks. I just remember Michelle looking at me the way that a best friend would look at another best friend being like, You’re crossing a line with me right now. And that involved like a zero-second understanding: Oh my God, she’s so pissed at me right now. Feeling that? Oh God, I don’t know how to describe it. It’s like the thin place between being yourself and being in character. It’s almost like being in a dream. You’re realizing you’re safe, but you’re not you, but something’s happening to you. I just remember being like, Who knows if I’ll see this person again? So I was like, Stare right back at her. And it just made me want everything so much more. And then I had to get right back on the train and go home.

How did you handle the waiting period?
I think it was just after Christmas, just before New Year’s. It was a while. I tried not to think about it. It had come out of nowhere anyway, so I was like, If it doesn’t happen, you never thought that it was going to happen. But I was really keenly aware of how different my daily life would be if I were going to work on that set. I just haven’t had that prolonged, positive work experience in a really long time.

What did you feel when they told you you got it?
Oh man. I cried so hard. I was beside myself. The fact that I didn’t feel like an imposter, and that I had never been given the chance, at that volume of material, and with so many different emotions to be in play — I just felt so happy. And I still do. It was a huge opening for me. To be able to bust out of a cliché or cumbersome, constricting definition of, I’m just a comedy actor. Can I just see myself as the actor that I am without connotations put on me by myself or other people? Can I — not start again, but just do the thing, rather than constantly saying what it is?

And you feel like this project did that for you?
Yeah. Because Michelle takes everything seriously in a way that I really identify with. That makes it really easy to go for it. And also the writing was so good. I couldn’t believe all the different things that were being brought in. There’s a really good comedy. There’s movement. There’s full-on dissociation. There’s time for long, detailed descriptions of physiological human processes. It’s also evidence of Liz Meriwether’s evolution. One thing I think maybe I related to about Liz is that she also came from comedy comedy, but then she can do so much more than that. And not that comedy is — I feel like I’m speaking about comedy as it’s not a worthy thing or a thing of no value.

I think you’re just saying it’s what you’ve been known for.
Right, exactly. And for Liz, she’s so good at writing drama, and she’s so good at writing things that are funny, hard-edged, but also romantic and erotic and that the combination of that is just … God, it felt so good to do.

What did you do to prepare for something like this, something that was this significant to you?
I don’t feel like I really got to prep as much as I wanted to. I felt a bit overwhelmed. My family was moving. It was my daughter’s first time going to preschool. I was starting to do press for my stand-up special, which came out in February of 2024. I was supposed to be finishing my book. I was still kind of trying to finish it on set too, which is really hard. I was like, Great, now I’m not even going to be able to prepare for this thing that is the most important thing I feel like I’ve ever done.

That’s so interesting. More so than Marcel or something that you wrote yourself, it really felt like the most important thing?
Well, those things are over. You’d hope every single thing is the most important thing you’ve ever done. I felt like my special was the most important thing I ever did. So I guess that’s how I feel in the moment.

When did you first reach out to Nikki?
I think I probably got in touch with Nikki once I got to New York, over email. I didn’t text her. I don’t think we talked on the phone. I was really nervous to do so, just because it was a huge honor and major undertaking. I have played a real person before, a person based off of a person. But Nikki’s not that far away from when this happened.

Right. It was six years ago.
Yeah. I just wanted to make sure she was okay with me. And then we met in person and we were just kind of off running. Did she tell you that when we met, she came to set and she was in her clothes and I was in my wardrobe and we were wearing the same outfit? It was crazy. The first day was so nerve-wracking for me that I have very little memory of it. I just remember being like, Be cool, man. You’re not doing anything wrong. It’s normal to be nervous in front of one of your favorite actors and all of these people that you respect, and doing this project that is genuinely based on two people’s most intense experiences ever. But I remember at the end of the day just being like, I don’t know.

What was the scariest thing about it to you?
I didn’t want to let Michelle down and I didn’t want to let Nikki down. Not that I did want to let Liz and Kim down or Shannon or anyone else. But when you work with people that have done such stunning work that Michelle has done, or have gone through something that is so inside of their heart and soul — just the idea that I would be the wrong person to be there was really scary to me. But I also have a fair amount of faith in taking flying leaps. I don’t necessarily like how it feels, but I do tend to get great distance and I do often land in the right spot.

What’s another flying leap that you’ve taken that worked out for you?
Comedy specials and trying to write books. Writing them is a huge deal for me, because that process is actually very linked to what happened on Dying for Sex. I discovered, or finally confirmed, that there was a very inner, inner sanctum in me. There is a language on those walls and it’s only mine. And I know what it sounds like. It sounds a lot like my comedy. It sounds a lot like Marcel, but it is more spellbound. It’s more like watercoloring, it’s more what my emotions really feel, not just what my performances look like. And it’s me.

When you first started talking to Nikki, what kind of things were you asking her about? What were you taking in from her for the character?
I asked her a lot about her character’s anger. Because I’m not a person of emotional outbursts like that. I can get to a point in my personal life where I am aching to say something and I fail, to my detriment, often. I asked her what her grief felt like. I asked her what she felt about us standing in the area of her own story, or how she felt about the fact that the story had been changed. I asked her a lot about what it felt like to be with Molly. I didn’t want to ask about her experience watching Molly die, things like that, until I was there.

Why not?
She offered to send me pictures of her and Molly. She sent me some of them when Molly was healthy and when they first met. And then she was like, “If you want, I can share with you some of the pictures of Molly when she was dying.” There were some videos where you can’t really hear what they’re saying, but you can see her stroking Molly’s head. At first I was like, “I’m too scared.” I didn’t really feel that I should see them. But then on the day that we were filming the first scene, where Molly tells her, “Nikki, the cancer has returned,” I said, “I know this is very last minute, but if you can send them to me today, I think I do need to see them today.” There was a cherry blossom blooming outside, and I was looking at these pictures of Molly, and I had this real sense of: I’m not going to let you guys down. Nikki had said to me that she really feels that Molly is with her and she feels like they’re doing this together.

Were you ultimately glad you’d seen the photos of Molly dying?
I felt like those images really helped me on that day, but it was kind of a fine line. Every time I would look, I whispered in my mind, “Thank you for letting me see.” When we wrapped the show, I found myself blurting, “Thank you to Nikki. Thank you, Molly.” It’s not my job to do that, it’s the director’s. But none of us would be here if she wasn’t willing to let us be.

How much of creating Nikki was calibrating this fictional person on the page and bringing yourself into it versus incorporating things she had told you?
That character was really developed on paper. I felt that my job was not to slip into any autopilot stuff, not try to please people by being funny if the situation didn’t call for it, and becoming comfortable with letting my understanding of Nikki develop as time went on. I think some people start a project, and they know everything about the character, but I don’t exist in my own life that way. I understand myself very well, but as I hit new opportunities or new experiences, I change and I’m like, Oh, I didn’t know I would be like that. And there are some things about Nikki, the character, that I really relate to, but there are a lot of things about that character that are really not what I’m like.

Like what?
I am a very careful person. I am really careful with my body. I don’t like to be wet or cold. There was a time in my life when I would’ve been, in my early 20s, walking around drunk on the street, but I would never do a lot of the stuff that Nikki in the show does — stuff that fucks up her personal life. I’m not a messy person. I would never have that bag. I did at one point, but not now. My purse is bad, but it’s not as bad as that. I’m also not the kind of person that would feel comfortable being someone’s companion as they go through cancer, in the way that Nikki is like, “Yeah, I’ll do it.”

Why not?
I would do it if my best friend asked me, because I’d do anything for her. But I would do it in a totally different way than what that character does. I was asking Nikki specific questions about the doctor. She was really, really angry at the doctor who ignored Molly’s initial signs of cancer. She sent him so many letters, being like, “Do you know what you did?” That’s not something I would think to do. I really needed to be like, That’s real. Even if that’s not in the show. What is in the show is Nikki standing across the street screaming at somebody — another thing I would never do and was not comfortable doing on that day in the middle of real New York City with people looking at me.

That was hard for you to shoot?
Yes. It was really hard. I could understand what I felt inside when I thought about Nikki’s rage. Just that deep injustice and the burgeoning understanding of, “You’re going to make me lose the one person that loves me and I don’t even love myself. You fucked me.” How do you make that real?

How did you?
I was putting my headphones in a lot and covering my face and just not trying to be … I don’t ever want to annoy anyone on set, but I remember I was crying a lot, and it was kind of hard to step out of it. I didn’t try to be Nikki. I really only listened to the full podcast when we were almost ending, because I felt like I don’t want to get in my head about not replicating her, and she doesn’t seem to care about that. She seems to care about the spirit of the thing, because she and Molly are spirit partners. That is what I concerned myself with. Part of that also meant letting things happen to me when Michelle would be performing with me.

Like what?
The way Michelle is, it’s hard not to feel that if you touch her, it actually might hurt. I think for both of us, we’re very, very sensitive. I’d be like, “Is it okay if I were to kiss your hair or touch you?” And then just letting that happen, letting yourself have more intimacy between the characters than you have in life because you just had gotten to know each other.

And then you’re holding each other’s boobs.
Yeah. I’m very shy about my body. My best friend, I just started changing in front of her, and we’ve been best friends for 20 years. Having someone who’s not a real-life sexual partner or my doctor touching my boobs — that takes a lot of courage for me.

When I was talking to Nikki last night, I was like, “Molly and Nikki are in love. Why aren’t they just dating?” And she was laughing so hard. She’s like, “Molly was so straight.”
Totally. The thing is that they’re straight people. Maybe Nikki, the character, would date her.

How did you find that spirit of their relationship with Michelle?
It just started happening, which was insane. What was so interesting about this was a lot of us working had children the same age. I felt a difference in my objective: I wanted Michelle, the person, to know that I wanted her to feel comfortable around me when we’re just sitting around and telling each other what we’re going to have for lunch or talking about where to buy a sweater for your baby or what books we’re reading or whatever. But I think everybody on that set needed to be able to be like, “Bye. See you tomorrow, I need to go. I have to put my kid to bed.” It was the first time where I felt real intimacy with a co-star and then appropriate, healthy relationship building outside of the scenes.

You didn’t have to become real best friends.
No, but we got to become real friends. Sometimes it certainly does happen, where people become really close. I tend to become close with people I work with. Michelle is just, like, a guru. I really want to know what she’s into, what she’s thinking. She’s very well-read. She’s very concerned with the world at large. She’s a very fun dinner-preparer.

But the work was so hard, there’d be some days where I’d be like, I’m not going to be able to be this character all day and go home and sit on the bathroom floor while we’re doing potty time. When we were filming the scene where Molly was dying, there was a moment when Michelle pulled me and Sissy Spacek into a hug. It was the first time that I wondered, Am I going to be really okay when this is done? Because the real Molly really died and that is real.

How did you decompress after the shoot?
The first thing I did was think: I can’t look like Nikki anymore. I got a huge haircut.

This haircut?
Yes. I changed my physical appearance a lot. I can get into a pretty rigorous morning schedule: I will journal, I will meditate for half an hour — these are things I have to do not to be an ADHD nightmare. Other than finishing my book, I took really long walks and I did feel really sad that the job was over. But I felt that it was complete. I didn’t feel like anything was left undone or unsaid. I just felt lonely. I knew that it would dissipate, but I wasn’t used to feeling that way.

Have you all kept in touch?
After I got my haircut, I went out to dinner with Liz and Michelle. Michelle was walking down the street and she saw me and goes, “Oh my God.” Because I had gotten my haircut. She was like, “It feels so weird right now. What did you … You look …” She was very complimentary, but she was like, “This is going to take me a second to deal with.” And we just sat there in the restaurant. We were looking at each other. It was beautiful and weird to see each other on the outside and in our normal clothes.

You’ve said you’re feeling the best you’ve ever felt in your 40s — and that you felt sexy playing Nikki. There are all of these projects right now in the world about women in their 40s having the best sex of their lives or having a sexual reawakening. Did this show’s message about that resonate for you personally, or for your friends?
Since my 40s began, it definitely is the best I’ve ever felt emotionally and the best I’ve ever felt in my body. I’ve always felt pretty sexually inspired. Sexually, these little peepers have been pried open for years! She has not been slumbering. But I think that I’ve gone through periods, with my physical body, of not admiring it, or being so critical. My 20s were a nightmare in that sense. For me, there used to always be an appetite, but a lot of shame around what I want. Is female pleasure — is my pleasure — a priority and should it be? I know it is for me. Am I weird if it is? But I just feel like I have dropped off the junk and continued to drop it off, the older I get. I just love being in my 40s. It’s the best time. I feel so glad I’m not dead.

Did the show make you think about your own death?
I never think about my own death. I don’t. I did start to become a hypochondriac during the show. I went to every doctor I could go to. I was convinced that there was something wrong with me. I went through a very bad back injury.

What happened?
I genuinely think carrying Nikki’s big bag fractured me. They tried to make the bag lighter, but after it was injured. I started going to physical therapy and it got better. But I was like, of course, the combination of being exposed to the subject matter and being like — even though I’m not religious — deeply wired to be a neurotic Jewish person who thinks I have a tumor. That did come up for me.

Did that hypochondria last?
Everything kind of went back to its normal level. I have thought a lot about, This is my one chance. I learned a lot from Molly. I wrote about it a little bit in my first book, but I really circled back to it during this job: What is the deep messaging inside of oneself that creates not a healthy boundary, but more of a limited space that we keep ourselves in? And what is the work we need to do to get past it?

What did you need to get past?
For me, the root of a lot of the behaviors that are harmful to myself or that keep me in a limited space or a state of deprivation in terms of how much I could really get out of my life are a reaction to seeing criticism and fear of it. This job busted that open for me. And also, when Molly is describing what happened between her and her abuser, how she felt special, and how that exposes the idea that the abuse is her fault — you could interpret that as: There’s something bad in me, and either he put it there, or it’s me. And she has to really get that out. I think a lot of us have that idea about ourselves. There are those of us who are lucky enough to not have had an experience like that, but can still retain, for our entire adulthood, a sense of badness that we have to outrun.

Yes. I really relate to that, too.
Molly’s story is really hard for me to think about because of my own daughter and not wanting her to ever experience anything like that. But I also realized that some part of me, for a really long time — not because of anything bad that happened — got the idea that I was bad. I have been slightly or strongly believing that there’s something bad in me. And now I know that I’m not bad. We’ve all made mistakes. But the badness is not there. I don’t have to hide anything about myself.